Transcript
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Did you realise that 16 percent of what general practitioners see each day relates to the skin conditions or dermatology?
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And that 85 percent of Australians will suffer from acne at one stage in their life?
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70% of Australians by the age of 70 will have developed a skin cancer and one in 17 patients would've developed by the age of 85.
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A melanoma it's my pleasure to interview associate professor Alvin Chong, a dermatologist from Melbourne who also runs his own podcast series called Spot Diagnosis.
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I'm going to speak to him about common dermatological conditions.
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G'day and welcome to Aussie Med Ed, the Australian medical education podcast, designed with a pragmatic approach to medical conditions by interviewing specialists in the medical field.
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I'm Gavin Nimon an orthopaedic surgeon, and I'm based in Adelaide, and I'm broadcasting from Kaurna land I'd like to remind you that if you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe
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It is my pleasure now to introduce Associate Professor Alvin Chong, a specialist dermatologist in Melbourne, in Victoria.
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He has an appointment as a VMO at St Vincent's Hospital in Melbourne and at the Skin Health Institute.
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He is also an Adjunct Associate Professor at the University of Melbourne.
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Alvin is the creator and co host of Spot Diagnosis Podcast.
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Welcome Alvin.
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Thank you very much for joining us on Aussie Med Ed.
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It's a pleasure to be here, Gavin.
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So it's nice to be on somebody else's podcast for once.
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Yes, exactly.
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Being a co producer of another podcast, it's great to have you combining together to actually introduce different topics.
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I started Aussie Med Ed three years ago as a way of introducing medical topics to medical students and to also GPs.
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I believe you undertook the same sort of philosophy, but with the idea of having predominantly a dermatology focus.
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Can you tell us a little bit about spot
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diagnosis, please?
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Yeah, sure.
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So spot diagnosis podcast.
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We actually started recording it in 2019 and the reason why we recorded it and we started this podcast series was due primarily to the lack of, um, education on skin diseases.
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That's almost endemic in medical schools.
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I said, I'm an academic at university of Melbourne and we, for a long time, all we had to teach in dermatology with three one hour call lectures in four years of medical school.
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Of something that is 16 percent of the work of a GP.
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That is clearly inadequate.
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And we decided, okay, why don't we create our own podcast series at the Skin Health Institute.
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And the aim is really to introduce more dermatology topics to these poor medical students.
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Because you can imagine if you go to med school and you come out after three lectures given in second year, you're going to have virtually no working knowledge on skin.
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And that's basically a lot of what we see.
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But as it stands, we recorded the whole season 2019.
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And we launched it in March, 2020, which as all of us know, that's when the pandemic was declared.
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It was just timing.
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We thought we got to launch it and we did, but it was quite interesting because the entire world of medical education pivoted towards online education.
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And suddenly we had a lot of listeners and now we're on a fourth season.
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The reason why we have a podcast like this is every month we talk about a different topic in skin disease, for example.
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eczema or psoriasis and we invite a local specialist dermatologist with a particular interest and we will present very good quality evidence based information in a format that is accessible to all health professionals.
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So it's not only to medical students but also to GP trainees, GPs and nurses.
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And we're in our fourth season, we've had 42 episodes and it's going very well.
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We've just cracked 50, 000 downloads.
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Which for a niche, uh, uh, podcast and demonstrator is not too bad.
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It's excellent.
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It's fantastic news.
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And I've actually listened to the fair few episodes and I'm really enjoying it.
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It really expands upon the area we're working on and trying to provide a general area.
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You're going down a specific pathway.
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And it is really important because when I went through medical school, I figured that a lot of skin conditions could only be treated in one or two ways.
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I believe it's actually progressed a lot over the years, and we'll go into that in a little while.
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What are the more common types of conditions that you would see or the things that are important to mention today?
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So, I guess.
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We're very bound by geography and so if you're working in the tropics, for example, you'll be seeing a lot more tropical skin infections.
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Australia is fairly unique.
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We have, uh, unfortunately, the dubious distinction of having the highest skin cancer rates in the world.
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And it's partly because we're a country that's bathed in high UV with a largely susceptible Caucasian population.
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In Victoria, most, but probably about 40 to 50 percent of the work that I do is related to skin cancer.
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So diagnosing skin cancers, whether they're keratinocyte cancers or melanomas.
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And then the other 50, 50 to 60 percent is related to inflammatory skin diseases, eczema and psoriasis.
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We see acne a lot, and then there are all kinds of disorders which involve skin and integument like hair diseases.
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And after you deal with the common things, which make up 80%, then the other 20 percent can be almost anything, for example, planus, lupus, so the full spectrum of weird and wonderful things in, as well as common things.
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And of the skin cancers, you say, what are the ones that we need to really worry about?
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Yeah,
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sure, sure.
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Traditionally, we divide skin cancers into non melanoma skin cancers.
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And it's got a new name now is keratinocyte cancers.
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And there are things like basal cell cancer, which is by far the most common type of skin cancer that you're going to get out there, followed by squamous cell cancer.
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So these are the two main keratinocyte cancers.
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And then you have melanoma.
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Melanoma stands separately by itself.
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The good thing about keratinocyte cancers are, even though they're common, they don't result in a lot of death.
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Okay.
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So basal cell carcinomas, for example, will occur.
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In about 70 percent of the population once they reach the age, uh, 70, so it's really common.
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They occur in, uh, sun exposed parts of the skin, like the head and neck.
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They're kind of pearly, growing, ulcerated, um, nodule on the nose or the ears or the, or the forehead, usually asymptomatic.
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The good news is they don't metastasize.
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Once they're diagnosed and, and excised, then they're cured.
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squamous cell cancers are, um, the next one along.
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They They occur probably about a third as commonly as basal cell cancers.
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The ones that are on the head and neck can be nasty, so if they're on high risk sites like the scalp, the nose, the ears, the lip, they can metastasize.
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So head and neck squamous cell cancers are a little bit more concerning, but usually they are low risk sites like on the forearms, on the back of hands, and they're not that dangerous.
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Melanoma is, uh, a completely different beast.
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Fortunately, they're not quite as common as caries from the side cancers, but they're still common enough.
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So they're going to be about 17, 000 diagnoses of melanoma per year.
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And they're going to affect about 1 in 17 Australians by the time they reach 85.
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And the death rate from melanoma is still reasonably high.
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So I think the latest, uh, data shows that about 1, 200 to 1, 400 people die of melanoma per year.
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So that's.
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As many as in car accidents.
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Okay, this is considered the third most common cancer after prostate and breast.
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And it's still a killer.
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The good news is that you can actually diagnose it early.
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And it's largely preventable using sun protection.
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And I believe there's been some new developments in the diagnosis over the last 20 years or so with dermoscopy and other techniques.
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Perhaps you can outline a bit about that,
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please.
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Yeah, melanomas used to be, certainly when I was in medical school, we learned about the A, B, C, D, E, right?
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A for asymmetry, B for border irregularity, C for color variation, D for diameter, and E for elevation or evolution.
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And that's still very useful because it's like the, if you don't have a dermatoscope and you're looking at a dark lesion, a pigmented lesion, you use all those criteria to inform you as to whether something is worrying or not.
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Of the A, B, C, D, E, it's the E, evolution is the main concern.
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If it's something that's changing, it's a concern.
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But over the last 20 years, the use of the moscopy, so the microscope is really, it's like a glorified microscope, times 10 magnification, uses LED light, and you place it on the skin with a liquid medium to reduce refraction.
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And that allows you to look at lesions a lot more closely and also can peer through the top layer of the epidermis into superficial dermis.
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So you can have an appreciation of color and structure.
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And there's a way to learn the moscopy and that in itself has resulted in earlier diagnosis of melanoma and also better differentiation.
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So you're not cutting out pigmented separate keratosis, which are harmless, but we can differentiate them from suspicious pigmented lesions.
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So it really improves the benign malignant ratio.
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And I think the moscopy training is now done by a lot of GPs.
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Uh, certainly it's a very important part of being a dermatologist.
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But it's still not very well taught outside general practice and dermatology, for example, in medical schools.
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Certainly in Melbourne, it's not taught
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there.
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Do you think this would also be supplemented by artificial intelligence and the use of computers to help diagnose it as well?
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The first thing is, I think there needs to be more teaching in Demoscopy.
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Per se, across the board, because it's like listening to a stethoscope.
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All medical students learn how to use a stethoscope to listen to heart sounds.
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I think medical students should learn how to use a stethoscope because But it's not so easy to teach, you need expert demoscopists to teach.
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And I think it depends on the medical school if the resources are limited.
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And they say, Oh, you can only have a very limited amount of time learning dermatology.
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Then they try to teach everything rather than just go into great detail in one topic.
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So it's not so easy.
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Now artificial intelligence is very different.
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Anything that is visual and that can be analyzed, uh, pattern analysis.
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Okay.
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Anything that's that uses pattern analysis, artificial intelligence can do faster and more accurately than we can.
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Okay.
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That's actually been proven.
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There are now studies to show that an AI program can diagnose a melanoma.
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As accurately as a practicing expert dermatologist and much faster.
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Okay.
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So, so we are heading down the path of hopefully using AI as an adjunct to the way we diagnose things.
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The kind of naysayers would say that we're heading on a path of extinction.
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It's going to take over.
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I don't think that's going to happen.
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I think the, fortunately there are legal structures and medicine is a very conservative way of organizing thought.
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And so we're still largely protected by legal structures, by responsibility.
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You can't really hold AI responsible.
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If it makes a mistake, you can hold a doctor responsible.
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We make a mistake.
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But there's a lot of research now where they use AI to look at pigmented lesions.
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Yeah, I reckon
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the AI is interesting because I think it's going to be an extra tool to supplement your clinical acumen.
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One question though that comes to mind when you're talking about the stethoscope and also other cardiology devices is that over the years, the stethoscopes now become noise cancelling electronics.
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The other cardiology things like blood pressure machines you buy at the chemist shop to do your own home monitoring.
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Do you think it will come a day where you can buy your own dermatoscope with an AI?
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So at least you can monitor it and then.
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When you're worried, go to the dermatologist, get advice from there.
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Yeah, so, yeah, good question, isn't it?
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There are now AI linked apps, okay, and they're not widely used.
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I have seen apps where you can take a picture of a pigmented lesion and send it to an AI space, and then it's diagnosed, and then, uh, the recommendation, this is worrying, you need to see a dermatologist.
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This is benign, you can leave it alone.
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Okay, with all the disclaimers, whether we like it or not, it's actually being used already.
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It's being used right now.
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And they're pretty good, they're pretty good.
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I had a patient who, who came in and the app had picked one lesion which they were worried about and two lesions that they said were harmless.
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So I said, let me have a look at all of them and it was accurate.
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The lesions that they said were harmless was actually quite sophisticated.
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You need a bit of knowledge to actually say that it's harmless.
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And the one that they said was a malignant was clearly malignant.
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So they're really intelligent.
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Obviously at this
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stage, so anyone listening is to recommend you to see a dermatologist rather
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than this.
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Correct.
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Correct.
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What was interesting was this person had used an app and the recommendation was go and see a dermatologist and get it treated or go and see a doctor to get it treated.
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So that's probably the way triaging things.
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I think AI can be used to triage things.
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Excellent.
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I believe
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there's been some further advances, not only in the diagnosis, but in the treatment of these skin cancers, particularly melanoma.
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Yeah.
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So the main advance is actually in the treatment of melanoma.
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So it wasn't that long ago when, if you get diagnosed as having metastatic melanoma, it's over.
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Like chemotherapy doesn't work.
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The median survival is something like six months, so it is just a lethal disease.
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But everything changed with a type of treatment called checkpoint inhibitors.
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Okay, so checkpoint inhibitors are incredible drugs that actually allow the body's immune system to recognize the melanoma and to kill it.
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Okay.
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There is one called Pembrolizumab, which has been used now at least over the last 10 years and it is life changing.
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It can actually produce.
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Complete metabolic response in patients with widespread melanoma.
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And it is almost like science fiction.
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A magic bullet.
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Like a magic bullet.
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You got a f l in, in, in Adelaide, of course, by afl, right?
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It's a highly of afl.
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Oh, okay.
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All right.
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Let's, we can argue about that.
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And Victoria, the team Hawthorne had a, a really, a well-known play and he had, this is really clearly documented in the public sphere.
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He had a melanoma on his lip.
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Okay.
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And that was excised.
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And then he developed a metastatic melanoma in his lungs.
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So now, usually you get a diagnosis of metastatic melanoma in your lung.
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It is game over.
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He was actually given checkpoint inhibitors and they produced a complete metabolic response so well that he could actually go back and play for Hawthorn and captain Hawthorn.
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This is literally the science stuff of science fiction.
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So.
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Not everyone who gets treated with checkpoint inhibitors will respond that well, but you have great hope and previously there was none.
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Okay, so these checkpoint inhibitors are now being used in all kinds of cancers, but melanoma is one where it has created a huge inroad.
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Excellent.
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So has it improved the prognosis significantly across the board?
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So it's mainly a
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metastatic melanoma.
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Okay.
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Brilliant.
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So, of course, the first diagnosis when you start off with a melanoma is initial excision.
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What's the role of the punch biopsies versus excisional
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biopsies?
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Okay, so that's a very good point, right?
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So, we actually recommend that if someone has a pigmented lesion that is suspicious for a melanoma, that the initial biopsy be an excisional biopsy if at all possible, rather than a punch biopsy.
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And the reason for that is, um, false negatives.
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So a melanoma is not uniformly malignant.
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Okay.
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So you have a pigmented lesion and some of it may actually be benign, whilst other parts of it may actually show the invasion.
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And if you actually punch biopsy the wrong bit and you get a diagnosis, say, oh, this is just a benign nevus, it's a disastrous false negative, and it can lead to delays in treatments.
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And this has happened.
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Pigmented lesion, punch biopsy, it was called benign on the punch.
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But it actually because missed the malignant bit and the patient presents like a year later with metastatic melanoma.
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So excisional biopsy for suspicious pigmented lesions, if at all possible.
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So there's not a concern that it might spread the melanoma by doing a punch?
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No.
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So you don't spread melanomas by punch.
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It's been untruly proven.
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That doesn't happen.
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It's a misdiagnosis.
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Okay.
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Excellent.
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And the other cancers themselves, they're fairly straightforward.
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So
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if we talk about basal cell cancers, the majority of basal cell cancers are treated by excisions with clear margins.
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Superficial basal cell carcinomas can be treated reasonably well.
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with a medication called Imiqumod.
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This is a topical treatment.
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You apply it for a six week period.
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It causes quite a lot of inflammation.